Security tips for young people relocating away from family - Kate Bright

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This week we welcome back security expert Kate Bright to discuss what you can do to support your children as they start higher education or university.  Kate is one of the few fully qualified chartered security professional women in the business, and her approach is one of inclusion and education.

The safety of our children is always a top priority, and Kate discusses how you can support your children as they move into the next stage of their lives, keeping them safe not only physically but digitally as well.

She explains the importance and role of community, how honing your gut instinct is a basic safety requirement for everyone and then shares a few tips on environmental and situational awareness training from her Body Guard in a Bag series. 

Whether your children are still of school going age or they are about to head off into their next life adventure, this week's podcast shares some practical tips on how to prepare them and keep them safe while allowing them to spread their wings.

Interviewer - Farnaz Fazaipour | Property Investment & Ownership

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Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
London Property, home of super prime, where you can find informative educational and entertaining content, covering all aspects of property.

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:11  
Hello, and welcome to London Property, home of super prime. I'm your host Farnaz Fazaipour. And today we're in conversation again with Kate Bright, who is going to share some of her wisdom with us about security for ourselves and our family. Welcome back to the show, Kate.

Kate Bright  0:27  
Thank you so much for having me.

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:29  
So, Kate, just for our listeners who might not have heard your previous conversations with us, would you just give us a little intro about yourself just to put things into context?

Kate Bright  0:39  
Absolutely. So I am a chartered security professional, one of a very small handful of women in the UK that are registered as such, I spent the last 24 years working for and with private clients internationally. And our theme within the business Umbra that I set up is secure lifestyle. So we aim to try and help our clients feel and be safe. And that is through a combination of their recruitment advisory and project management services that we provide for them.

Farnaz Fazaipour  1:10  
Brilliant. So last time we spoke to you, we had a very, very insightful conversation about how to get secure just before the carnival starts in Notting Hill. And today our conversation is going to be for parents who are sending their children away to universities and to other countries. And what are the top tips that you would have to give to parents and their children. When when this is happening?

Kate Bright  1:42  
I think it's the time that is one of the most sort of a high risk, shall we say, particularly where for some of our clients, they've kept their children in what we would call a gilded cage. So they've not had to experience making mistakes and learn from them. And so I think for the rest of us, I think if we use those themes that we use with our clients is that from as young an age as possible, to start to have conversations about feeling safe and safety. And I think the thing with raising children in today's society is that certainly in the last 1520 years, we now have a two prong attack of physical and digital safety. So not only to have parents have to think about their children being safe, when they're in the physical world, but also digitally as well. So I think I think if we sort of pull it right back to to being able to have conversations with children, and separately, we can talk about how young I believe and we've seen, we've had great results that you can start talking to children certainly having that ability for children to or young people that say I'm going to call I want to say children just just because there always are children, to be able to talk to you and talk to you when things have gone wrong. But also, ideally creating a safe space for them to be able to speak to you about things they may be concerned about and and let's distil it down to safety being peace of mind, and safety being that ability to hone a gut instinct. And I think higher education is that sort of first move into the big wide world of having to hone this gut instinct. And so I think some of the tips that we use with our clients is is through using the example of going to a university environment. Having that preparatory mindset going with your child to the campus and helping them to orientate helping them to get the people and the contacts on sites that they will call if things are not as they should be. And again, that sort of community focused approach as well. If children feel like they're on their own, and don't have a sort of friendship group, that can be a really intimidating sort of environment for them to be in. So helping them to understand that by participating and getting involved with all of the different sort of types of activities and things that are on offer, particularly where they're presented in things like Freshers Week, I'm a big advocate for being part of sports groups, whether you're sports you're not, you know, it can be part of a logistics setup. I know there were a few people on my netball team at university who couldn't furball to save their lives, but they got us to all of the national competitions. And as a result, they were part of that that sort of community. So I think this this idea that we sort of let them just become adults overnight has to be coupled with I think a little bit of hand holding in those initial stages. And I think the best results that we've seen is when parents will will help to settle young people into new environments, help them to build things like situational awareness training, and there are some great resources online to do that. L'Oreal has a great bystander training course which is totally free. And that's something that elements of which we would lift into the bystander training and the situational awareness training that we deliver to young people too. So what to do, how to know, when things aren't as they should be, what to do, what to say, and when to remove yourself, I think they're really good kind of, sort of foundational building blocks to help to encourage and guide young people to really take control of their own feeling of safety.

Farnaz Fazaipour  5:23  
So it's really important that when you are going to new university, to actually get engaged and not be a kind of an invisible person, so that you're you're noticed if you're not there, as it were, is that what you're saying? Absolutely, absolutely.

Kate Bright  5:42  
I think it's one of the key parts that we believe that Umbra is sort of one of your secret weapons is to be able to have community, we're always saying to our clients, and in the case of rising crime trends that we can talk about, one of my top tips for, you know, people that are unfortunately experiencing, if not burglaries themselves, then you know, they're in st, is to set up a neighbourhood watch Whatsapp group, that that that serves two purposes, which is building that community looking out for each other. But also then comparing and contrasting, helping each other where and as and when there is crime taking place, with capturing images and helping with that sort of information sending to policing, which is a really important part of of supporting police activity, but the police don't have the resources to be everywhere at anywhere at the moment. So we have to help support them. And one of the one of the biggest things you can do is create community. So I think if we distil that back to young people going to university, I think it's a really good opportunity for them to understand the power of community and the power of coming together. And certainly knowing who's on the floor of their building, knowing who's in the sort of the vicinity of them in their halls of residence, and being able to set up that those sort of community based groups is a really good starting point. But yeah, if commonality of interest is what humans are all about, and I think we all feel safer as part of a network or a group. And so I think it serves many purposes to get young people involved with groups and activities, but not least of which to enable them to be able to sort of come together and, and safety in numbers. So yeah, we would recommend getting them as involved as possible. And that's quite hard at the start, because you know, it's a big step, it's a new minute new move, it's normally going sort of, there's a physical location or geographical distance between you and your home environment, you know, really well. So I think, if you can invest as much time in going up and helping to sort of orientate I think that's a really good starting point without being the sort of helicopter in which, as we all know, it's easy to fall into that trap.

Farnaz Fazaipour  8:00  
So I mean, we're fortunate enough that we live in a country that generally speaking, we walk around feeling safe, and I know that for most of us, you know, we're not in danger, danger that often. So we're not sort of alert to this. But do you have any top tips about things that we shouldn't be carrying around with us, just on our person, you know, in our handbags.

Kate Bright  8:24  
We have a bodyguard in a bag series that we we promote through our Instagram and online, I think it's it's not necessarily about the things that you would think and of course, you know, things like torches and alarms are a good way to attract attention and deflect unwanted interest. But I think the most important things for me, particularly young people, is to be able to keep phones charged, having charging packs, enabling us to really reinforce to young people that these devices have become our navigation tools, they've become our safety tools, they've become the way that we can help signal safety for ourselves, but also for other people. And you know, I like carrying multiple charging packs around with me, because you know, we all know those those moments where you meet with somebody and they say, Oh, my goodness, you know, I haven't charged my phone, and you can be that person that helps that other person to, to be able to keep themselves with a device that can help them in case they need it. So that's my might have any tip. That's my, my sort of top tip is keeping those tools that we have already on us, you know, charged ready to go and able to help us things like privacy screens as well, I think I'm certainly a big fan for when you're out and about and in new places. Having privacy screens for laptops or phones, it just keeps your information private keeps what you're doing private and it's a good way to sort of prevent yourself from having people we call shoulder surfing and seeing what you're doing. But yeah, I think the main things that I would carry around with me the ability to to keep our head handsets ready and charged. And 25 years ago when I was at university, we didn't have mobile phones. So it probably would have been boiled right back down to that idea of situational awareness. And you're investing time in honing the gut. And that is I say, as I say something that you can do for free online, literally right now tapping L'Oreal by standard training, but also something that we can lift out in that glide path before young people leave home, to get them into situations where they have to think about drink spiking. And they have to think about situations that they might be presented with where they need to have strategies to remove themselves and understand what is right and what feels right. So yeah, physical actual things to keep in your bag. But, but again, I always placed that that real importance on not just getting into the kind of tech and the gadget tree, but but actually knowing that you can use the right sort of aspects of your own kind of honing your gut I think is one of the the best toolkits that you can hone and have in your toolkit.

Farnaz Fazaipour  11:06  
And what's your best advice about headphones, because everybody's, you know, walking around with these big headphones on there.

Kate Bright  11:11  
Yeah, so So I now only use ear over bone headphones. So my headphones of choice of the the aftershocks branch number one I was putting my ear pods in and my it was making my ears really itchy and funny. So I was always I was on the lookout for something a little bit more kind of less intrusive. But if you think about wearing the big sort of Bose or big sort of over ear headphones, you're completely oblivious to what's going on around you. And so even keeping, you know, one of the the earphones off at all times, particularly when you're thinking on on public transport or trains, you know, from a practical perspective, a train can change direction, it can change a stop people can get on it that you perhaps might want to, you know, be moving away from and if you're not aware, then you can't move. And so the benefit of over ear earphones, for me anyway is I can use them when I'm running and I don't fall out, I was losing, you know, an ear pod a month, which is an expensive habit to be undertaking. But the over ear earphones would probably be my my my my trick of choices. Since I've moved to these I haven't had any problems. And also I'm aware of what's going on behind me when people are running up behind me and they're running on in the park when I'm doing my morning walk I'm able to move out of the way and not get get sort of concerned that there is anybody coming up behind me. So yeah, that's that's, that's a sort of an easy, quick win if you like.

Farnaz Fazaipour  12:39  
And personal alarms, what are personal alarms?

Kate Bright  12:43  
Good for confidence building to know that you've got something on a key ring that can deflect or attract attention and deflect deflecting the sort of unwanted attention we will talk about, we shouldn't have to keep our keys in our hands, we're walking through three places we feel uncomfortable, I err on the side of caution of if you're in a place where you're needing to get your your keys in your hands, you know, our situational awareness training would dictate that you shouldn't be there in the first place. So it's a tricky one, because again, young people going to places that they haven't been to before, for the first time, it's a perfect storm of, you know, potentially taking a wrong a wrong turn. And being in a place, particularly where there's lack of lights, where opportunistic crime can occur, my advice would be not not to be there in the first place. And if you can have, you know, a card that you can put on an Uber account or a bolt account, and you know, that's going to be used only in the case of emergency, particularly in winter months, I would say, if you're able to encourage that with young people, I think that's a really good, healthy way of encouraging them to to think about that safety, even if they don't use it or even if they're using it too much. I think that again, it just it creates conversation as to why you were using it. Why did you feel unsafe?

Farnaz Fazaipour  13:58  
So we're talking about children going off to university and youngsters, I mean, what sort of what sort of awareness do they need to be taught? And, you know, how much should they know how to protect themselves physically? I mean, is it important to take you know, judo, you know? What would you say about karate or this kind of self defence and what have you.

Kate Bright  14:24  
So as part of my clothes protection, my bodyguard training, you do a what's called Hard Target combat what was called Hard Target combat training. And that's a sort of very sort of physically led bit of training that you do as part of your course more to know when not to use physical restraint and force. Because if you're doing that, then who's looking after the person who you're meant to be sort of protecting? So I really got into things like Krav Maga, I believe that Krav Maga as a skill is a very instinctive, very kind of it's a methodology that I would say is the most useful for simulating real life situations. I think the benefit of anything karate based Judo based is its community, its activity. So big ticks of the box. For me from a number of perspective, though both those things are really good. And any confidence building that that arises as a result of it, what I would say is that I, of course, have undertaken an incredible gold training, but I don't want to have to use it. So this is the sort of the key thing, I think building confidence is only as good as the situations that you find yourself in, where if you're going to have to use that sort of protective mechanism, then, in my mind, it's already too late. So a lot of our training centres around situational awareness. And I would say if that's if there's an investment to be made in your safety, for anyone from the age of eight to 88, then having somebody walk you through and honing that situational awareness piece is a really good investment, because you will, you will find that you will not put yourself in situations where things don't feel right, and you will not be walking around in places holding keys, because you just simply will choose another way and not be in that situation. So I think the physical aspects of being safe is one we needed sort of not confused with the kind of cellular, the Hollywood images of, you know, sort of self defence and martial arts being the sort of the solution to being safe. I think I'd build on that in terms of university experience, where you already have an on site security team. So perhaps, a better use of your time. Alongside physical activity, which I would always support is getting to know the on site teams that are there to support you making sure that your child is very aware and looped into the pastoral care. Because I think I think this idea that we keep our killed children in a gilded cage is only as good as particularly digital risk and safety of the first thing that they see or experience that they have to handle themselves. And unfortunately, in today's world, with the physical and the digital risk and threat, it's not a case of if it happens, it's a case of when and it's what you do when you experience something that is not, you know, in your frame of reference, a safe experience. And it's only when you see something from a digital perspective or experience something digitally. It's about what you do next. And I think if we can start to educate young people and adults, even as to the what you do next bit is really important. We can try and prevent. But actually, if we are going to experience negative events, it's what do we do in those that first 24 hour period, you know, how we engage with policing how we engage with pastoral care how we engage with security teams that are there to support us. And I would build on also that Whatsapp group mentality of Neighbourhood Watch will actually if you have an on site security team, knowing that you are part of a regular patrol, for example, knowing that your halls of residence is included on some sort of CCTV mapping, and little things like that, which I think if more parents actually and more young people, it was led by more young people said, you know, we want to feel safe. How are we being made to feel safe, it would be one of the metrics that we would use when we choose places that we go for higher education. So we're really trying to promote, and push universities to talk about some of the excellent work that they're doing, to particularly protect young people, particularly those first few weeks when it is a new experience for everybody helping to signpost and know who to talk to where to go, and how to feel safe. So yeah, that I think the let's not get too caught up in in, in the martial arts aspect. But I'm all for if that's a group that you want to join in Freshers Week, that is a fantastic tick in the box from a safety point of view, to join a community of people that that want to keep fit through through learning about the ancient art of protection.

Farnaz Fazaipour  19:07  
But actually, it's interesting when you say that, you know, the universities and all these, they're doing great job at keeping a high level of security going, the more you you know about what they're doing, then the more you're naturally going to be more aware as well, because a lot of us just walk into places to take it for granted that, you know, there isn't actually all these things that go on in the background that we're unaware of. So knowing the details of that actually makes you think, Oh, well, maybe I shouldn't be so blase about security, maybe it should be something that is a little bit more in the forefront of my mind. Digital is is a big subject. Obviously when they're younger with children, you can control that you can try and block it but very soon they figure out how to get past you and past any protection that you put on trying to remove the axis. So talk to us a little bit about digital security and what what is a good thing to teach a about digital security and when is it that your alarm bells need to be going.

Kate Bright  20:04  
So the first thing I would say is that creating that space for conversation is really important because and we've now modelled it around the age of eight. And there's some fantastic resources from the National Cybersecurity centre, that they have a thing called Cyber sprinters programme. And it, it sort of simulates the kinds of things that you can experience, digitally from email hacking and phishing, all the way through to sort of online content, harmful online content, online bullying, and things like that. I think, a bit like when we said 25 years ago, you know, we put the sort of PG 18 rating on movies, and how we all all of us, I'm sure managed, somehow whether it was at a sleepover or, you know, inadvertently seeing, you know, scenes from films that were perhaps more violent or, or had more content in it, that you'd then you were used to seeing in your home environment, I think we need to, we need to keep in our minds that you can block and you can set parental guidance and settings. And that's fantastic. And I think following all that guidance, linking in with the schools and education specialists, that are at the forefront of this is fantastic. But I would say that also creating an environment where when a child not if when they see content that is is inappropriate when they have an incident where on Snapchat, it within the Snapchat ecosystem, someone says something to them, that makes them feel like they are being bullied, or, you know, negative comment. It's, it's the what lexpert, like I was saying about the physical, like a burglary on a street. It's, it's the what do we do next? How do we communicate it? Who do we talk to about it? How do we break it down into something that can be learned from to move forward. And I think a healthy cyber digital conversation is one where, with certainly with younger children in particular, they can feel like they can talk to you about the things that they see. And there's been a recent case of a platform called Omegle, causing a huge amount of concern for schools and parents alike. It's a form of Chat Roulette, where you can literally speak to anybody across the world, which is once a terrifying concept. But actually, that's one of the concepts of online gaming. So again, I think we sort of tried to block the things, let's, let's take it take the blocking out, let's talk about the concepts and encourage young people to be able to call it out. And again, like the bystander training of seeing something on the street, or in your gym, or in a in an environment that doesn't look right, or in a bar, you know, when somebody is physically, you know, aggressing somebody else, it's what do we do? What do we say? When do we step in? And when do we step away? Exactly the same principles online. And I think we need to, we need to not be afraid of those conversations. And I think we need to be also looking at cases where, certainly I know from my experience with my nieces, for example, they're so clever, they know where the settings are now. And so I think that on one hand, there's encouraging digit digital literacy. And you know, these are going to be digital creators, these are young people, for whom me at 44, I sort of bridge that gap of knowing and remembering zero internet. But I'm also you know, able to kind of navigate round, to a certain extent, these of these, these young people now from eight, downwards, they are growing up with technology literally glued to them. And I do believe there's going to be a benefit to that there's going to be a move to a world where we are going to need two and a half to become more exceptional, because we're going to be facing more and more crises, and I'm fully confident that technology will will be able to be part of the solution, as opposed to just be seen as a problem. But I can understand how terrifying it is. And with young people, the young people in my life, it's it's enabling them to call it out themselves a bit like physical risk, calling it out online calling out for other people being other people's bodyguards, in real life, and digitally, I think is the way that we will come together as communities, online communities and physical communities. So yeah, safety in numbers, I think is the the conclusion.

Farnaz Fazaipour  24:26  
Yeah, it's also quite important for parents to actually learn because you know, these things move so fast that half the time you don't know what you should be warning them about, because it's sooner. Like you said this roulette thing I never heard of it. I'd heard about Be there or be here or something where where you have to share what's in front of you what's behind you in order to see what they've sent you and it's just like, what, trying to trying to keep up be real be real. That's what it's called.

Kate Bright  24:53  
But I think again, if you are curious, curious and keep curious around Your own feeling of safety. And I always I always tie it back in with physical and mental health if you are aiming to be in the best possible physical and that's not doing marathons, it's, it's getting up and getting that morning sunlight and understanding that movement and nutrition and hydration will keep you safe. Because your physical and your mental health will be in check. If you can't run away from something, you're not safe. If you can't identify something that's unsafe, because your mind is clouded with other things, you're not going to be safe. So I think, you know, people always say, Well, how, you know, physical mental health, you know, why is that so important? Well, actually, it's, I think it's foundational to be able to identify what you need to be worried about, you know, we're evolutionary beings, it doesn't matter if it's a digital space or a physical space, we are getting, you know, fully evolved to understand what is not right, and what is right in both contexts. So I think, being able to be certainly as a parent, being able to really see the wood from the trees, and really helped to understand that young people are evolving in a completely different frame of reference than we did. Learn from it. Be curious about it. Ask those questions. You know, if you know there's an app called be real, if you know that there's a platform called Omegle. Ask a young person, I think there's this concern that by asking, you're going to fire it up, and I'm gonna shuffle away and go and download it? Well, I think we're past that. And the worst examples I've seen when parents didn't realise that, with all of the safety measures in place, it was simply a playdate away, or, you know, in an inadvertent, you know, Saturday shopping session where somebody showed somebody, something, something else. And before you know it, you've got a child who's completely oblivious. And I think, I think I would, I would prefer there to be an awareness, as opposed to that disempowerment have no awareness of all the sorts of things that can go wrong, because then you own that gap from an earlier age.

Farnaz Fazaipour  26:59  
Yeah, so now, you know, security may have always been a physical and mental thing. But I mean, I think that mental security is becoming a lot more of an issue, isn't it then,

Kate Bright  27:11  
and you can set up what I can call controlled mistakes, you know, you can perhaps set sounds awful set little traps along the way. But you can perhaps simulate things that might go wrong, and see how they respond to it, you could perhaps take off a setting and see you know, what that means, and how that how that child responds to that or, or talk about the settings and say, you know, this is why we're doing this, and only you are an expert at your child's development at each stage. And don't think that it's something that can be sort of simply outsourced to the education community. Although I would be asking questions of teaching every step of the way, what's the best guidance? What's the best resources, because teachers are given a lot more frontline guidance and advice by people at the National Cybersecurity centre? Because they are then able to disseminate that information in Quick Time to large numbers of young people. But I think yeah, that that curiosity of of saying, look, here's a mistake, here's something that I've done wrong, I think that's quite, that's quite powerful to look, I clicked on this link. And, you know, now what's happened is I've had to reset everything we've had to learn about passwords, some of the best experiences I've had to take with my nieces, has been setting three word passwords, the best passwords, you can create a three random words, so numbers and letters. So you know, things that you see around you, and it's hilarious sort of donot, green, and t you know, you then that's your three words, with a few random numbers and, and a few random sort of, you know, exclamation marks. And so that that idea that you can create safety, through good practice and through interaction. And beyond that same level, we're all on the same level, if we're talking about password change is no different to being an eight year old, to be an 88 year old, and eight year old, nine year old can can grasp the concept of three different words creating more more of a safe environment for them on Snapchat, or whatever platforms they're on. I think also, having now experience the sort of clients I work with, who have given their young people phones and devices to to be safe, versus others that have chosen not to, that's a really interesting cop compare contrast to because no way is the right way. It's just a different way. And so I think understanding how you can even if a child doesn't have their own device, how you can start to really let that child feel like they have, they have that freedom to ask and explore and ask questions, because they will come into contact with children, for whom, you know, a phone has been given at a younger age. And I think we need to lose this whole judgement piece around those that have and those that haven't. And it comes from a place of fear, but I think go into the fear. Dig into it. plenty of resources out there. We're an open book Is this who who helps to guide and, and and navigate regardless of whoever you are. So get in touch. There's resources on our website, there's a navigation tools on our website to help you to understand where to go next. And lean into it and be curious. And and I think that's a really good healthy mindset to be in.

Farnaz Fazaipour  30:20  
And just before we say thank you for talking to us again, tell us what is changing in the security environment? I mean, has it Have you seen any obvious changes since we've gone into lockdown and come out of lockdown and people are, you know, having affordability issues and what have you? I mean, my car got stolen, I was quite shocked by it. I didn't think this is something that happened then it happens very often, apparently these days. So what what what would you say? You've noticed there's been a really big change in recent times in security from a security aspect.

Kate Bright  30:55  
I think you've got the randomised to the targeted, becoming much more obvious. So randomised attacks from a physical and digital perspective. So the ability for online gangs to have galvanised during the last two and a half years and honed the craft that's manifested in more and more people having more and more different sort of phishing scams. And we've all had the texts that say that they're from Royal Mail, click here, pay one pound 34 and you'll get your your parcel back. And particularly for a lot of older people, they have fallen foul of that because it's a text telling me I've got something at the post office, of course, I'm going to do that. And I think that from a physical perspective, we've seen a lot more randomised, you know, burglaries, yes, the stealing of cars, I think there's, there's a very simple way that you can, again, mitigation being key if you've got a car key keeping it in some sort of Faraday case or Faraday box when you're at home. Because again, people will be walking down the street, looking out for and ensuring that they are able to grab those different wavelengths because of the remote and wireless key locking systems or keep your key in a Faraday cage. So there's different things that you can do to respond to that. But I go back to what I said about crime be becoming something that is becoming more precision, but also more randomised. And I think we need to put what I call these dogs in the window. So for example, online, it really good strong password protocol and management, good device settings, enabling all of that disabling and enabling all of the things to have location settings on social media devices, for example. And then in real life, just ensuring that you've got that street Whatsapp group or block Whatsapp group so that if something's not right, you can let people know ensuring that you have a fully charged mobile phone when you're out and about so you can use it as a navigation tool. I think we're living in uncertain times cost of living crisis is going to make a lot of people more and more desperate and desperate times desperate measures. But I think again, it's that clarity, keeping ourselves physically and mentally able to ascertain what is a real threat. And what is something that's going to leave you in a paranoid state. I don't want people to be going away from this thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, dangerous all around me. I don't actually believe there's more danger than before. I just believe that we talk about it more. It's more obvious because of citizen journalism. And I think we have equally more and more tools at our disposal that we can put in place that are low cost, easy, and and just creating that sort of secure lifestyle hygiene around us. And so, yeah, it's uncertain times make us feel uncertain, but we have control of how we feel. And feeling safe is something that should be a human right, as far as I'm concerned in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of basic needs. So keeping aware keeping a community together, and being being your own bodyguard, but being a bodyguard for other people, I think is a good methodology to adopt.

Farnaz Fazaipour  34:07  
Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for talking to us. We're gonna let you get off to your busy day. And for our listeners, if you want to get some more advice to get in touch with Kate, you can head over to our experts directory on our website. And I'm sure Kate will be delighted to help. Thank you very much for joining us again.

Kate Bright  34:24  
Thank you for having me.

Unknown Speaker  34:27  
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