Transforming Tight London Spaces With Heritage in Mind - Nicholas Boyarski and Nicola Murphy

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This week we enjoy the company of Nicholas Boyarski and Nicola Murphy. These specialist architects are driven by academics, and have a deep understanding of the planning process. Their expertise makes them very good for dealing with complex matters of architecture.

Having come to architecture through different routes, they now work together to create bespoke solutions for problems that people have building in tight London spaces. They enjoy transforming existing properties, and adapting old properties to facilitate new forms of living. 

You’ll discover what their most challenging achievement in their build in Cadogan Square was, as well as one thing that Nicholas will never do and Nicola will do!You’ll learn what is meant by deconversion, and how ants, bats and greater-crested newts have been known to contribute to the process.

Nicholas and Nicola give their valued insight into where they believe the market is now, and share one huge change that is coming to new-build regulations post 2025. Watch this space for more on the impact of that change in future posts.

Their work engages them with planners, heritage consultants, craftsmen and tradesmen, making it a career not just about buildings, but about relationships.

Interviewer - Farnaz Fazaipour | Property Investment & Ownership

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Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
London Property - home of super prime, where you can find informative educational and entertaining content, covering all aspects of property.

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:11  
Hello, and welcome to London Property - home of super prime. I'm your host Farnaz Fazaipour. And today we're in the conversation with Nicola Murphy and Nicholas Boyarsky. Welcome to the show. 

Nicholas Boyarsky  0:23  
Really pleased to be here Farnaz.

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:25  
It's not often that we can speak to an architect and call him a doctor. So we're going to start with you, please. Can you tell us about your passion for architecture and how you came to be with us here today and your journey?

Nicholas Boyarsky  0:43  
Well, well, I've been interested in loved architecture since I was child because my father was an architect. And you often find that people grow up in the same atmosphere and do the same things. So I've been practising with Nicola now for about 30 years, and we a lot of our work is concentrating on London properties and working with them. And we really, really like transforming existing found buildings, we like bringing new life to them. And we like really working closely with our clients to sort of collaborate and come up with a project that's going to make them happy.

Farnaz Fazaipour  1:19  
So you've been very modest with your introduction. Because you do give a lot back as well, don't you? You, you you have taken taught courses. Is that correct?

Nicholas Boyarsky  1:31  
I mean, I also teach architecture. I'm a professor of architecture. I teach design history in theory. So I live architecture.

Farnaz Fazaipour  1:40  
And your father actually founded the Architectural Association. 

Nicholas Boyarsky  1:43  
He didn't founded it, but he was the director of it for 20 years. I have London architecture particularly in my blood, yes. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  1:43  
All right. So, so when when you were studying architecture, I'm, you know, you've got to guide me here, but as a as a, someone who's achieved their PhD in architecture, presumably had to focus in on something for your thesis.

Nicholas Boyarsky  2:09  
The thesis I did the PhD I did many years later. And that's about practice research, which is, which is reflecting and taking aspects of what we've been doing for the previous 20 years and exploring it and unpacking it.

Farnaz Fazaipour  2:22  
So what that shows on, you know, the environmental challenges as well as trends or what what does it actually mean?

Nicholas Boyarsky  2:29  
Particularly it's about how we design the creative processes that we work with, also environmental aspects are important. Yes.

Farnaz Fazaipour  2:37  
Okay. All right. And Nicola, how about you? Tell us a little bit about I'm gonna assume that's how you met through architects.

Nicola Murphy  2:44  
Yes, we did. We met at the AAA. First day, I think. My journey to the AAA was a little different from Nicholas's. I didn't come from a architectural family. But we had, my parents had their house remodelled. And that was my introduction to the AAA, the two people who did it were tutors there. And I just thought it sounds like the most fantastic school, no exams, just drawing. And so I went there, met Nicholas. And we, after working a few years in bigger practices in London, we then set up our own practice together. And we've been working on very, I'll say tight London sites, because all sites in London are fairly tight and contained, you know, we're surrounded by things all the time, on very bespoke solutions for particular people solving problems that they have, or issues they want to bring to a building, like, Go Fish or whatever it is. But yeah, so that's it. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  3:49  
That's how it came together. And the thing with architecture is that, you know, you really are creating things that you'd leave, and you could leave for hundreds of years. So it's actually, you know, there's so much more involved than just creating a property for someone isn't there?

Nicola Murphy  4:05  
Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, there's the whole history of the property and not just the property as you find it, but but then you have to look back and see what happened there before. And before that, and all of these different people and that have passed through a building, they leave marks and traces and it's how you take aspects of those and you bring them to the new the new of life of the building that you're making it.

Farnaz Fazaipour  4:31  
So I'm going to ask you this Nicholas, do you think that restoring things back to how they were always intended to be is, is is a good practice of going into something and trying to work with it? 

Nicholas Boyarsky  4:46  
I think that's a really good question. I mean, we see what we do more is transforming existing properties. So really, we live in a different age. Now to when when central London properties were built, and so we really see You know, our role is opening up new possibilities and buildings. I mean, where necessary, where things should be restored, we, you know, we we will work with the craftsmen who can restore, but it's really about adapting old properties to new new new forms of living.

Farnaz Fazaipour  5:15  
new forms of living, but I guess keeping some sort of history or they're absolutely modernised?

Nicholas Boyarsky  5:21  
Absolutely.

Farnaz Fazaipour  5:22  
And so would you say that your your, the focus of your work is, is related very much to how to maximise planning restrictions and listed building restrictions, what would you say that your practice focuses on? I'm going to ask you both that question.

Nicholas Boyarsky  5:46  
Well, that's always the beginning of a project is what's feasible, what can be achieved, and what can be consented? You know, so that's the first sort of big hurdle in a project is to understand the property and then to understand what the client would like to do, and then how to, to unfold a process that that can be possible. The next, you know, challenges are obviously the design, finalising the design and building it. But but certainly planning and consents. They're very critical, because if a project is going to fly, if it's going to work, everything has to be sorted out at the beginning.

Farnaz Fazaipour  6:24  
And Nicola, what about you? So you're actually doing your PhD at the moment? Is that right? 

Nicola Murphy  6:29  
Yes, yes. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  6:30  
And what are you focusing on? What's the focus of that?

Nicola Murphy  6:33  
Ah, well, that's some, I'm really interested in the unseen aspects of architecture of what we do, the pieces of a building that you don't really know are there, but I have an effect on the way that you live in it. And so it's about things like the ghosts that that inhabit buildings. And that can be the you know, the old craftsman that built it, or the pieces of the fragments that people leave behind when they leave a building. And it's those little things that you find when you see a building for the first time. It's how they in in how they inform your design response to the problems that you're given. So that's what I'm interested in the unseen aspects. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  7:16  
So will you give me an example? Because that sounds fascinating, but I'm trying to understand what what do you mean exactly a ghost? 

Nicola Murphy  7:22  
Well, you know, people to hide things underneath the floorboards. Or they leave things behind cupboards that are that and it's these things that you find that, or so there are things like that, or then they're, they're a piece of pieces of craftsmanship where people the way that that people made walls in the past, you know, the wattle and daub with where they cut each individual piece of timber and, or the way they knock out a floorboard or whatever, it's these little things that we don't know.

Farnaz Fazaipour  7:52  
And when you strip when you strip back, you discover these things, and you hope that you don't discover an ancient Roman village and then in other words, there will really be problems. There was actually a site like that, Kensington Green, I think it's called, if my memory serves me, right. And when they were halfway through the development, having built one side of it, and I think was a Singaporean firm that was behind this, they discovered a Roman village and the whole thing stopped. You guys must have been sweating it and in Singapore thinking up budget, but it took about I think it took about a year for the other house that we did, we did a feature on in our scores when they stripped it back. Not very glamorous findings, but they found like bottles of beer stuck in the in the in the brickwork. So that does that that will teach you a lot about what goes on. And that's something that's actually quite close to your practices. And then you do look into the history of things when you're looking at a project. And when you want to kind of put a case forward. Can you give us an example of a really interesting one that you did, where you had to really dig into the history and say, Okay, actually, yes, we can do this because our heritage consultant says, X, Y, and Z. Talk us through that what what is involved when you bring in heritage consultants?

Nicholas Boyarsky  9:13  
Well, I could I could probably talk about the building where we're sitting in today, and which was originally two buildings, and then it was merged in the 1950s 60s into a series of flats. And our brief was to refurbish the first floor, and then to make some quite well through the process of our design, we really developed some quite new approaches to taking out walls and things like that. So we had to really become archaeologists. It's like being a forensic scientist sort of finding out going through all the old maps and plans, seeing what was there originally, because you're trying to build an argument to justify to design offices and English Heritage. A justification for the change so that you want to make. So there is a lot of that involved in, particularly with listed buildings.

Farnaz Fazaipour  10:06  
So every case, presumably, then is really looked at on its own merits. So if you're going to the planners, and you're presenting a case, it is kind of you almost don't know what the outcome is going to be, because it's a bit like going to court, you have to convince the judge that, you know, in 1855, people did that.

Nicholas Boyarsky  10:25  
Yes, I mean, it being England, they know kind of firm rules. So a lot is about interpretation and nuance and what the, what you're giving, in order to get, say, a change of, say, removing a wall, you may have to promise to undertake to improve something else. So it's a sort of negotiated trade off process to some degree,

Farnaz Fazaipour  10:48  
And ultimately, what the plan is, and the heritage consultants, is it the heritage consultants, what they're looking for is to restore history.

Nicholas Boyarsky  10:59  
Not necessarily,the heritage consultants work with us. So it is the planners and the design officers, not necessarily they think they are, but they can be taken on a journey, if they liked the narrative, if they liked the story that you're offering them, they will go with it, sometimes. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  11:19  
So what was the most challenging thing that you achieved here, so we're sitting in for our listeners, we're sitting in a in a double building in Cadogan Square, and what was the most amazing thing that you discovered and and achieved?

Nicholas Boyarsky  11:32  
probably the glass bridge that the the glass enclosed bridge at the back of the apartment, because we needed it, because if we couldn't have it, we couldn't work, fire escape, fire escape, access route wouldn't work at all. So it was really essential, but also it was going to tie together the three kids bedrooms, so it was really important as a sort of social space. And we discovered looking through old historic buildings that there had been a conservatory there at some point. So we were able to sort of really dig this out, and then take it to the offer and say, look, what we're basically doing is reinstating the same idea. And then you start talking to Officer about materiality. And he said, it's got to be light. It's got to be modern. So then we looked at technologies of putting glass together and making a steel and glass structure that was sort of elegant, maybe but wasn't, wasn't historical. So that was a collaboration, I'd say with the planning officer to that.

Farnaz Fazaipour  12:37  
And so so we've listed buildings, it's it's very much finding out some historical precedents about things that you want to change that are not allowed. Yeah. But if they were there before, then you have a much higher chance of actually getting them.

Nicholas Boyarsky  12:53  
Yes, it's it's that and I think it's really about constructing a narrative with the planners, so they understand where you're coming from. I mean, they have a whole lot of things, they need jerk about some things they just hate. And so if you start if you go in and say, Oh, we're putting recessed downlights and ceilings, they'll just throw it out, because they have certain policies that they really don't like. So as long as you know, what, what ticks that box, you know, you can work around it.

Farnaz Fazaipour  13:21  
So experience plays a huge part in success rate.

Nicholas Boyarsky  13:25  
Yes. And knowing that officers, and dreading when you see you've got so and so's name, you know, that's going to be difficult. Otherwise, you know,

Farnaz Fazaipour  13:34  
And obviously, you have to have all these different relationships in different councils. So that's you. So as as a couple do have an obvious division between what you enjoy doing and what you focus on. And what Nicholas focuses on.

Nicola Murphy  13:53  
Well, there are some things that Nicolas doesn't do. And I do. So. For instance, scaffolding, climbing scaffolding, Nicolas will never climb a scaffold. So I do that. But apart from that, we're pretty, we swap roles, we do most things. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  14:14  
Similar interests, just lucky.

Nicola Murphy  14:16  
is yes, yes. And we've worked together for an awfully long time. So we there's a language that we that it's not necessarily spoken that we communicate with.

Farnaz Fazaipour  14:31  
So on the subject of of planners and planning, that there is certain things that people you know, who don't know as much about architecture as you guys do. That we all talk about like, oh, amalgamation Nope, can't do that. So can we start with him? I have permission so that when when anybody is being advised by non experts, yeah, that's the first thing everybody says you can't do that. Whereas I've, I guess I've hung around other professional for long enough to to always say to my clients and people I come across is not always a no.

Nicholas Boyarsky  15:06  
Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely, I think it's worth digging further, they also call it deconversion. And there is a sort of move in Kensington Chelsea, because they are they appreciate that people want to restore houses to what they were. But there's some sympathy to that. We've had incredible victories, I think we turned nine units into one not so long ago. So it is it is possible to do. But you really do need to know the ins and outs of recent case law and what's been acceptable. It used to be that amalgamation wasn't didn't require planning permission, it was just a permitted development till about three or four years ago. So you could do it, you can now combine two apartments, but the total square meterage on paper shouldn't be more than I think it's 170 square metres. But I think I think if you if you present a case to the officer, and you really argue for it, they will, they will make a sort of judgement on a number of issues to do with the building or, you know, the feasibility of doing it. So it's got harder, it's certainly got harder, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Farnaz Fazaipour  16:25  
But over 1700 square feet, it probably is quite challenging. But then you said you did these nine units. What was that? That was a listed building presumably.

Nicholas Boyarsky  16:34  
No, actually, it wasn't, it wasn't listed, there were nine units. And we is two buildings, nine units. And we first off, just made seven units, then we made it five, and we made it to me way to one. But this is a huge super prime thing with a triple basement and everything. It took about a year and a half. But we went through all the different iterations. And each time we had to do some building work around that. So sort of open up walls and things to prove that the amalgamations had been achieved.

Farnaz Fazaipour  17:08  
That story alone is going to make you famous.

Farnaz Fazaipour  17:12  
That was seven or eight years ago. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  17:19  
So if we put you to that challenge today, it'd be a little bit harder.

Nicholas Boyarsky  17:22  
I think Kensington Chelsea sort of worked out what was going on, and responded to that.

Farnaz Fazaipour  17:29  
So this is mainly driven by the fact that there's there's a housing shortage, they don't want to lose units.

Nicholas Boyarsky  17:34  
they don't want to lose units. They're very resistant to us losing residential units, that's in their kind of DNA that they shouldn't be doing.

Farnaz Fazaipour  17:45  
Okay. The non professionals in the industry now have certain things that they just tell everybody Oh, no, you can't amalgamate. No, you can't do basements, which, you know, I always like to question whenever somebody says, No, you can't, because I think there's always got to be a little bit better solution than that. So just for our listeners, can you tell us, you know, what is amalgamation?

Nicholas Boyarsky  18:06  
What amalgamation or it's now called deconversion is when people may buy a property that's been subdivided, probably in the 60s or 70s, into a number of different flats, and they want to restore it back into a single unit. So the process used to be permitted development. So you needed to get you needed to make an application to the council and then they would more or less approve it, provided you follow the correct routes. Recently, it's got more contentious and local councils don't want to lose property units. So it's more tricky, but it is possible to achieve I would say, likewise, with basements, you know, you can still build basements, it's there's just a lot more hoops to climb a lot more like basement assessment plans you have to do so there's just more paperwork more expense more experts needed to.

Farnaz Fazaipour  19:04  
And you know, as a as a non expert in this. One thing that you always hear is you can't build more than 50% of the size of your garden if you're doing a basement. So you know, what does that translate into for professionals?

Nicholas Boyarsky  19:21  
Well, I mean, if it's listed, you can't build under the list of buildings so you can build in the garden and you're right, you can't build more than 50% of a basement in that situation.

Farnaz Fazaipour  19:32  
Okay, so the restrictions are there but they're not blanket restrictions, forget about basements. Again, an expert with experience is going to be able to open up a lot more.

Nicholas Boyarsky  19:41  
So I think it's always worth digging further and seeing what the feasibility of actually achieving a project is. And you could you can approach the council with a pre AP, which means you don't make public what you're doing and you get informed advice from an officer about what they're like. due to how they're likely to respond to such an application.

Farnaz Fazaipour  20:05  
And generally speaking, how are you seeing the market from where you are? Are there a lot of people staying put and doing works? Or are you finding people are actually investing into real estate and still engaging with with building work?

Nicholas Boyarsky  20:20  
But it's a funny time, I would say it's funny time I think people are staying put. Some people are realising that there's really interesting property that can be bought, that maybe has challenges. But But yes, it's I wouldn't say it's a really bland time right now. I think people are very cautious about what they're doing.

Farnaz Fazaipour  20:40  
But also, I think if you've got the guts for challenges, that's really where all the upside is, isn't that? 

Nicholas Boyarsky  20:44  
Absolutely, absolutely. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  20:46  
And if you've got, you're in the capable hands of a team like you two, then your challenges become a little less risky.

Nicholas Boyarsky  20:54  
Yes, yes. I'd also say we do work with, you know, clearly planning consultants, heritage consultants, whichever consultants we consider necessary for a project. Because it's very important with the planning side to get the regulatory material, you know, stacked up to make the argument. But yes, I mean, it's a, it's a great time of opportunity.

Farnaz Fazaipour  21:17  
Yeah. Let's touch on the subject of sustainability. Because I went into into a building, quite recently for one of our featured properties. And they were talking about how they had to have like an ant colony on terrace so that the insects had somewhere to go, and was that you've got to be kidding me. Have you heard of going into that much detail?

Nicholas Boyarsky  21:41  
No. I mean, you know, bats, and greater crested newts are problems. But I've not heard that can be problems.

Farnaz Fazaipour  21:49  
So can you talk to him about that, actually, because I should I had, I had heard about bats being quite restrictive, restrictive. But can you tell me how did it how is it how they looked upon?

Nicholas Boyarsky  22:02  
Well, the protected species, and I think there are three or four in London that are really protected. And it's not to say that you can't do development, but you just have to go through sort of due process. And your commission surveys, and if there are bats on the property, you can propose an alternative place for them to live. So it's not Oh, I've got bats I can't build. It's it's really how do we manage the bats? And how do we, you know, find a new place for them to nest and to live.

Farnaz Fazaipour  22:34  
And then I guess from a sustainability point of view, there's got to be slightly different regulations on redeveloping something that exists versus building something new.

Nicholas Boyarsky  22:44  
I think if it's, if it's a new build, that it's much tougher, you really have to go through all the hoops with, you know, sustainability, we've recently built a couple of new builds, and you it's so much more about how much water is going to be used the materiality, you really have to prove every every ounce of of what you're doing.

Farnaz Fazaipour  23:05  
Charging stations for cars.

Nicholas Boyarsky  23:07  
Everything, places for drying laundry, it's endless. If you're doing a refurbishment, it's much less onerous.

Farnaz Fazaipour  23:16  
But what are the most challenging changes that sustainability is bringing to the architectural world? Would you say?

Nicholas Boyarsky  23:23  
Well, I mean, the thing that's coming up for new builds is that after 2025, you we can't use gas boilers anymore. And that's pretty much enshrined in regulation. So that means we'll have to look at air source pumps, or heat pumps, or ground pumps to provide energy, which is a really good thing, because obviously, we shouldn't be burning gas. But it's it's like, trying to change the course of a huge liner, you know, to to get in line with requirements. And it's going to be pretty, pretty radical, I think, when it happens.

Farnaz Fazaipour  23:59  
So I'm hoping that what they mean by that, is that when you're putting in a new boiler, you can't put in a new boiler, or are they expecting the whole country to change?

Nicholas Boyarsky  24:08  
Every new building cannot have a gas plant.

Farnaz Fazaipour  24:12  
And then I guess that's an opportunity for people to start learning new trades. So before we before we finish off, for our listeners to really appreciate what you do, can you talk to us about a recent achievement that, you know, for you was like, wow, that was quite a hard thing to get done?

Nicholas Boyarsky  24:36  
Well, it's a few years back, but we managed to get permission to convert a Christopher Wren tower in the City of London. That was a sheduled monument. And we managed, it had been bombed in the war. It's right next to the stock exchange, and we managed to get permission to turn it into an 11 storey house in a tiny footprint of a Christopher Wren church tower. So that's probably our all time success actually, in terms of, you know, getting permission to do something that we never thought was possible. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  25:09  
And what that what was that concept that you went and sold to the planner, when you when you first started the journey?

Nicholas Boyarsky  25:15  
I think it was working with the detail of the building, really, and just talking about how we would be improving the building in a way, you know, it was standing empty. And if once they accepted that it could be used for somebody to live in, then obviously, or everything followed from that. But it was a long journey, I have to say.

Farnaz Fazaipour  25:36  
So since you're both very detailed in your experience, and in your education in architecture, what would you have to say to somebody who is actually considering going into architecture? Come on Nicola, is your turn.

Nicola Murphy  25:54  
It's a great profession. You meet all sorts of fantastic people, you do fantastic things, you it's not just about buildings, it's about relationships and how people interact with spaces and the city and with each other. It's it's everything. It's, it's fun. Yeah, you couldn't do anything better.

Farnaz Fazaipour  26:14  
And would you like to agree with her?

Nicholas Boyarsky  26:17  
Yes, I think so. I think so. I think one one thing Nicola didn't mention is when when we're doing the sort of work that we've been talking to you about is we get to work with craftsmen and tradesmen, who really have such knowledge, that it's a privilege to learn from them. I'm talking about sort of decorative plaster, plaster artists or stained glass artists, or or joining.

Farnaz Fazaipour  26:39  
So you stay involved. So it's not like somebody comes to you. You give them the plans, you do actually stay involved for the whole concept through to the end.

Nicholas Boyarsky  26:49  
That's our preferred route, because then we deliver what, you know, we know can be done. Yes.

Farnaz Fazaipour  26:54  
Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for joining us today. And for any of our listeners, if they need to get in touch with you and get some of your expertise, they'll be able to connect with you through our experts directory. So thank you for joining us.

Nicola Murphy  27:07  
Thank you. 

Nicholas Boyarsky  27:08  
Thank you. 

Unknown Speaker  27:09  
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