Is Italy the new London? Italy's Appeal to International Buyers:- Angelo Savioli & Farnaz Fazaipour in conversation

Welcome to the London Property Podcast, your go-to source for navigating the complex and ever-changing London real estate market. In our latest episode, host Farnaz Fazaipour speaks with Angelo Savioli from Summers Global Team about the trend of high-net-worth individuals relocating to Italy and its impact on the property market.  Angelo Savio Lee, where we explore the procedures for foreigners buying property in Italy, including tax considerations and residency requirements. Savioli provides valuable insights into Italy's appeal to UK buyers, driven by factors like favourable taxation and lifestyle amenities. While major cities like Milan and Rome witness increased demand, the real estate market remains diverse, with opportunities in luxury properties, rentals, and investments in vineyards and hospitality.

The episode underscores the importance of personalized recommendations and expert connections in navigating real estate decisions. For those seeking guidance in the London property market or considering investments in Italy, the podcast provides a wealth of resources and expert insights. Email us ask@londonproperty.co.uk

Interviewer - Farnaz Fazaipour | Property Investment & Ownership

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Transcript

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:00  
Hello and welcome to London Property - the home of super prime. I am your host Farnaz Fazaipour. And today we're speaking to Angelo Savioli, of Summers Global Team based out of Milan, welcome to the show.

Angelo Savioli  0:14  
Thank you very much for that.

Farnaz Fazaipour  0:16  
So Angelo, we're gonna go straight into telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you gained your experience to be here with us today.

Angelo Savioli  0:26  
Okay, I come from financial world because I started my career in an American company that now doesn't exist anymore, or better said, has changed the name and now is Accenture,  at the time was Arthur Andersen. And after I moved in Societe Generale bank, where the Societe Generale moved me to Rome, where I spent 23 years of my life. In 2005, I entered inthe real estate market, working from private funds, of private entrepreneurs, Italian entrepreneurs, to acquire important historical building in the Eastern European countries, such as Romania, Hungary, Republican of Czech and so on. In 2008, I brought in Italy, Sotheby's International Realty. When we opened up the first office in Rome, the second in Florence and the third in Milan. And in 2017, I sold my contract and I decided to stop with the Sotheby's, to start a company that's a independent agency, a private company, that belongs to the Summers Global Team group, with Lee Summers in New York as manager. This is in a few words, my experience.

Farnaz Fazaipour  1:36  
Yes, but it's interesting that you know, you've come really from a management consultancy finance background, and you've taken your your your skills to buy property investments in various different jurisdictions. So you understand that little nuances that occur in different countries. So the reason we're talking to you today is because we are at the top end of the property market here in London are starting to see a little bit of a pattern where kind of non-dom high net worth individuals seemed to be relocating themselves to Italy. And I just wanted to talk to you about that, maybe start at the beginning, which is what would be the procedures for a foreign person who would be looking at buying a property in Italy,

Angelo Savioli  2:23  
Okay. The procedures are the same as for Italian citizens. So, there is not any kind of difference in taxation when you buy. For example, if you buy as your primary home we called Prima Casa it means that is your first home, you have taxation of 2% of registration tax, if you buy a second home we have 9%. So then also for a foreign people, for foreign men want to buy property, if its the first move, residence in Italy, you have to pay only 2%. If you buy if you buy the property for vacation home, you have to pay 9%. It's the same for Italian for Italian citizens. So there is no difference.

Farnaz Fazaipour  3:09  
Yes, except that your stamp duty seems to be a lot more favourable than it is for us here in the UK at the moment. So when did you start seeing UK buyers coming to Italy?

Angelo Savioli  3:19  
UK buyers, for vacation properties, I think from the 1980s, the first years of 1980s, above all in Tuscany, because all the English want to buy the vineyards or villa in Tuscany, so they started. We start to see more people coming, before Brexit, when the Italian government wrote the flat tax for high net worth individuals that want to move the residency here in Italy. And so this improvement, increased the number of people that come from UK, to live in Milano and Rome substantially, not in other town, like Florence, because that's considered like a vacation region. But in Milano and Rome, a lot of people moved from UK here, due to the flat tax.

Farnaz Fazaipour  4:11  
And apart from that, what are the requirements in order to become a resident or a tax resident in Italy? 

Angelo Savioli  4:19  
You mean following the flat tax rules? There are no particular. Absolutely. The Italian Government made this, to increase the number of people that buy important properties in Italy. More or less there are three things on the offer: a special flat tax for foreign income, any inheritance and gift tax exemption and fast track of visas. So it means if you want to become residents here in Italy, you have to pay a flat tax of 100,000 euros here for you and for your families for all children, parents, parents in law for example, you have to pay only 25,000 euros. At least for a duration of 15 years.

Farnaz Fazaipour  5:03  
So you have to make that commitment for a 15 year period in order to do it.

Angelo Savioli  5:07  
Yes. It could be very interesting for high net worth individual or ultra high net worth individual obviously. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  5:15  
And are you seeing that you said that are you seeing a pattern of the moving to the to the major cities that obviously everybody knows Milan, Rome? And are you seeing that there are services that are coming around this? Are there more international schools, or are they already quite established for these kinds of services in these areas?

Angelo Savioli  5:33  
Absolutely. Yes. So for example, in Milan, Rome, that our universities have very attractive people coming from outside Italy, for example, in Milano via the economics university like Bocconi or Politecnico di Milano for engineers, and a lot of foreign people send their children, daughters to study at these universities. There are great services, from the elementary school to the high school, we have an English school. So without any kind of a lot of services above all in Milano and Rome, in Florence too. But if the people dont come in Italy for job, they decide Rome because its Rome, because is the capital, but also in Milan, because is the financial district, we call it not like London, but is the financial Italian district. So a lot of services. It's a little town Milano, it's not so big, like Rome, but the services are working better.

Farnaz Fazaipour  6:33  
And are you starting to see all of this having an impact on real estate prices? Or what are affecting the real estate prices?

Angelo Savioli  6:40  
Oh, not not, not yet. Because what happens with the prices in Milano that increase a lot in the last 10 years, more or less are on what we call base market. So from a price of 500,000 euros to 1 million or 1.2 million, is what we call these market, because is our normal price for an apartment here in Milan. For ultra net worth individuals that want to come and live here, probably the enterprise is not less than 3 to 5 million up in this price, there is no increase. So that was increased on the base market. But now the market is top and in this moment, I mean, the base market.

Farnaz Fazaipour  7:24  
Okay. And that was really from the local demand.

Angelo Savioli  7:26  
Yes, absolutely local demand. For luxury properties, I mean, the prices are saying no change, no less, no more, not increase, or decrease. So it's more or less the same.

Farnaz Fazaipour  7:38  
And are you seeing I mean, here in London, for example, we've got a lot of kind of lifestyle residences, where hotels are getting into branded residences. Are you seeing any kind of investment in the development market where they're actually building for a more international clientele?

Angelo Savioli  7:56  
Absolutely yes, in Milano, but above all, in Rome, where a lot of hotel companies, international hotel companies, opened or refurbished old hotels that were closed after pandemic, for example, and restarted in this day. So a lot of hotels, international chains that are working in a one to work are locked in because no Rome have a lot of tourism, a lot of people coming to visit and so that we need to have more bedrooms.

Farnaz Fazaipour  8:27  
Right. And they are reopening them as residences, or they're reopening them as hotels?

Angelo Savioli  8:32  
As hotels. 

Farnaz Fazaipour  8:33  
As hotels, okay, so this sort of super development residences thing, you haven't seen it really happening in Italy.

Angelo Savioli  8:40  
Not yet. Culture.

Farnaz Fazaipour  8:45  
Okay. And what do you what do you what do you see, you know, so here in the UK, we're having a lot of issues with the interest rates rising, the pressure on the rental properties and the rental stock. And then as a result, prices for the rental properties, are you you know, do you have a very matured rental market or most people aspire to be homeowners?

Angelo Savioli  9:13  
We have a rental market, above all in Milan, Rome, more or less. And, yes, the price increase incredibly, above all in Milano, due to universities, and so on, so a lot of students didn't find a home and they have to go looking for it outside Milano, because it's very difficult and it's very expensive to find a flat here. I don't know what will happen in the next future because the interest rates are increasing like you said and so mortgages are stopping now. We have the first data regarding the first three months of the year. And we saw that the demand to mortgages decrease rapidly and for that a lot of people instead of buy a property, try to rent it. But then there are no more apartments or flats to rent it Milano, or better there are but the prices have increased too much. So I think that in the next future will decrease also the renting prices.

Farnaz Fazaipour  10:14  
Okay. Now, I don't know how much exposure you have to this, but I gather that, you know, there is a lot of foreign investment going into vineyards and into hospitality. Is this something that you you're seeing yourself as well?

Angelo Savioli  10:31  
Yes, absolutely. Also, in this period, we are looking for a couple of vineyards for our clients that want to move to Italy, in Tuscany, above all, but also in Veneto region, because there is the Valpolicella area,  in which there is the Amarone, one of the most known wines. Tuscany and Veneto region, are where the people are looking for a vineyard in this period.

Farnaz Fazaipour  11:01  
So it's kind of the best of both worlds, they'll have something to do and they'll be living in a beautiful kind of lifestyle as well.

Angelo Savioli  11:10  
Something else, like for a hobby, just to offer to your friends a bottle with your label, and so some people can do it.

Farnaz Fazaipour  11:20  
And is this something that you're seeing across the border? Is it certain nationalities are targeting this this kind of purchasing?

Angelo Savioli  11:28  
From UK, Russian people disappeared obviously, when the war started. And no, more or less from UK and US, interested in buying vineyards.

Angelo Savioli  11:42  
Okay. Well, it's been very interesting talking to you and we really appreciate you taking time out of your your busy schedule. And we hope to stay in touch on what's going on in the Italian market with you and keep in touch. So obviously if our listeners need any help, you are able to help them. You're based in Milan.

Angelo Savioli  12:02  
Yes, I'm based in Milan but I work half the time in Milan, and the other time in Rome.

Farnaz Fazaipour  12:09  
The best of both worlds. Thank you so much for talking to us.

Angelo Savioli  12:13  
A great pleasure for me, Farnaz, thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai